Friday, December 12, 2008

Kill the scum

Good effort by Victoria's finest. They got rid of some scum off the street. He was anti immigration and probably extremely racist. Hey, I am anti immigration too. Australia is full. No more people.

Loopy, stealing knives and threatening police lives. Deserved what he got.

But, and isn't there always one?

He was a fifteen year old lad armed only with knives. Cops took him out with multiple gunfire. Was it four or six police present? Against one fifteen year old lad?

Ok, I wasn't there and I don't know the circumstances, but on the face of it, multiple cops shooting up a fifteen year old, (note, I have refrained from emotively saying child or kid), is just bad policing in my opinion.

Fifteen year old lads can be very bad for sure, but I am not sure that they are quite bad enough to deserve death.

What an 'orrible mess. Dead teenager and cops who are going to go through grilling like hell.

I don't want to turn in an English person who constantly bags their country, but something is seriously wrong with our society. I myself had a recent experience of out of control drunk young lads who have had a privileged upbringing.

When did it switch from being naughty to being really bad?


  1. I feel sorry for everyone involved but the cops did what they could with bad tools in a bad situation.
    If Brumby and Nixon had got off their backsides and given the Victorian Police tasers months (years?) ago when they asked the 15 yr old would be sitting in a hospital bed answering charges of intent to harm, etc.
    Waaay back in 1995 a mentally ill woman in Mildura went after coppers with knives and she was shot dead, too.
    Brumby/Bracks/Kennett - no one is listening to those who are expected to bear the brunt of society's worst behaviour.

  2. From what I can recall there have been multiple occasions where offenders have not been subdued by capsicum spray, does the formula need to be changed or should we perhaps shell out a little coin for tasers? Don't scream about human rights and electrocution, would it be better that someone be immobilised temporarily or shot dead?

    Again I don't know the circumstances but I find it hard to believe an agitated 15 year old had to be stopped by four bullets when there were four burly men (and two burly women) on hand.

  3. Shoot to kill?
    Did they have to shoot to kill to protect themselves? Seems incredible they had to do that.

  4. Anonymous10:43 am

    It's not shooting to kill. It's simply reacting to a threat.

    Preventing harm to yourself, colleagues or bystanders is number one priority. Preventing harm to suspect is second priority.

    Don't underestimate the danger of the situation to the cops involved.

    There have been situations where cops have been killed or critically wounded by knife wielding suspects (only a knife? yes), even though they had a firearm they could have used... so just because it was a "15 year old with knives" don't think it wasn't a deadly encounter for the cops too.

    He could have killed one of them with a single slash. And remember, the closer you let him get, the harder it is for your colleagues to save you due to the risk of hitting you.

    From what I heard, one of the cops was cornered and up close. In that situation you shoot at the central body mass to bring the suspect down. It's not about shooting to kill. It's about neutralising the threat to save lives.

    You have to remember one the situation escalates, you may not have a second chance to neutralise the threat.

    Shooting for the legs is difficult and even if you do manage hit their legs it's not certain to work.

    If capsicum spray can fail and tasers can fail (yes, tasers don't always bring people down), then a shot to leg, assuming you hit him, can also fail.

    People imagine the suspect being 20 metres away and police having a few seconds to think. In reality a crazed suspect can cover 5-6 paces in 1-2 seconds.

    At such close range, you may only have one chance to bring him down before he does serious harm to you or your colleague.

  5. Having a close family member who specialising in adolescents - and having heard what I heard - I think the response was reprehensible; it was also too close to home for comfort.
    But to call him scum is wrong. His ideas might have looked like something that had dragged itself out of a Footscray sewer, but at that age people are easily rehabilitated. I'd have hoped the police would have called reinforcements and a negotiator instead. But perhaps they didn't have those resources (funding funding funding! Brumby!). A good case was made by the Mental Health Institute who wrote into today's Age.

  6. I don't think we can really blame the cops themselves. They followed protocol, and they're taught to shoot directly at the chest, that whole "aim to wound" stuff is a lot of shit saved for TV that will only get a cop himself killed because it doesn't work, and you're more likely to miss. I have to agree with anonymous above me here.

  7. I know of kids aged 11 who tower over me and with whom I would not win a fight against if they had a knife, bad boys they are...drinking straight bourbon, smoking ciggies and causing havoc on our train stations and in the streets... I just thank God I have good kids.
    I was saddened to hear of this 15 year old and what reportedly happened. My initial thought was that I would have knee capped him if it was me and then the knives would have been dropped...then again..was he lunging at them at fast pace frantically and how close was he to them? Was the kid drug affected? If so, I know the strength of the smallest person on ice... 5 people cannot reason with a person on that or beat their strength and their agility like a cat's.
    I'm not sure. I so wish none of it happened, and I bet the cops do too. Then there are the boys' family, so tragic for them.
    Working in emergency nothing seems to surprise me, much, and then something comes in and you go, "No waaayyy"... absolutely... the World is nutty at times. Can't really speak about it all, you know, confidentality and all that.

  8. Hi Andrew,
    Cazzies other half here.
    Great post,you have bought up some realy good points especialy about todays society.I have had the pesonal displesure of dealing with this young man on occasions. In life he was what you quoted, scum and many more things however in death I have respect for the ones that loved him.
    He was on a one way road long ago and many saw this comming. The pictures plastered on the media last night show him as a 13 yo. I think, there is a pic of him in the herald sun today that is more current, if you compare the two you would assume they were of two different people, he did not look or act like a 15 yo boy, more like an 18-19 yo with a big chip on his shoulder and an even bigger attitude.I feel for the officers who did what they had to do, their lives have now all changed forever.
    They don't join the force to shoot people, they are there to serve and protect, and they did what they are trained to do with the tools supplied.
    I am no expert, but I have seen what speed and ice can do, on some people, it removes all pain and creates pure rage. Even a 70kg person on ice is near impossible to pin down with 3 guys weighing 320+kg.
    Todays Society has been losing respect for people and property for many years now, we all see it on a daily basis be it at the supermarket or on the road or anywhere for that matter. Our young people see this and just take it to the next level. Tyler took it to a new level and now there is just pain for all involved.
    The only positive I can see out of all this is the Hursty line will be better off as there will be one less skank drinking,smoking,traveling for free,having his feet on the seat and harrassing customers who arnt white.

  9. This is as disturbing as the event itself ... well roughly so.

    “Rita Dobrotka - a secondary school teacher - described the incident as “sickening”.

    “This is an assassination, it’s that simple,'’ Ms Dobrotka said.

    ‘’If this kid was a threat with a knife, then the police have to get their act together and introduce better training,'’ she said.

    ‘’They shot to kill. I’m a teacher, I know how kids can be and I understand they can be aggressive and out of control, but this doesn’t solve anything.'’

    (a) Fear for Ms Dobrotka’s classes if this is her understanding of “assassination”. Maybe she should take at the peek at a dictionary for a definiation of “assassination’. While she’s there, she might take a further peek at the word “hyperbole.”

    (b) Given the lad was expelled from school for throwing a chair in the classroom, perhaps staff at Ms Dobrotka’s school might have a few doubts about her support in a such a crisis situation.

    (c) Doesn’t Ms Dobrotka know that talking to the press in this situation and identifying herself as a teacher she’s on a kicking to nothing?

    She might have an interesting day at work on Monday.

  10. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  11. There does seem to be a risk of killing someone with a taser too Jayne, but obviously nothing like the risk of killing them with a gun.

    Go for the tasers I reckon Kezza, although, now with further information, perhaps the outcome wasn't so bad.

    Seems odd on the face of it Ian, but police training tells them to fire at the body. There is a chance, probably a good one, that firing at a limb firstly could miss, and secondly even with a hit, may not stop the attack.

    Anon, this is where I wonder. How did the cops allow themselves to get into a situation like that? We may never no and it may not have been their fault.

    I did think of you when I heard of the location Reuben. Scum I can cope with. Aggressive crazed white supremacists, I find pretty hard going. I don't think it was a mental illness.

    Thanks TDW. I don't blame the cops, but I wonder how they let the situation get to that point.

    Yes Cazzie, you must see some pretty threatening stuff. I understand but I am sure you are smart enough to never put yourself at risk.

    Hello Mr Cazzie, aka, very distant workmate. Racial harassment in my workplace of sorts is the one time will I will and have intervened. Otherwise I leave it to others. Thanks for the comment.

    LS, I wouldn't have thought there was such a thing as a naive school teacher, but it seems so.

    Robert, I was the first one to use the word scum. Can you call a pseudo Nazi like him an angel? I vaguely know Cazzie's husband and he does a difficult job, I am sure he does it well, or he would not be Cazzie's husband. You cannot continue to insult people. Disagree by all means. I am most unhappy at this.

  12. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  13. But you don't know his mental state do you Andrew? I think it's dangerous to make those sort of assumptions.

  14. Good. I am so glad to get free- of this fucking blog!

  15. Anonymous7:06 pm

    Hope that's a promise you'll keep. Good cut and thrust with civility returns.

  16. Reuben, over time you get experience of judging people's behaviour. Of course I have limited information about him, but I think an indulged young man who thought the world owed him something, the loss of his father and someone who was not prepared to fit into society. I like people to rebel against the norms and rules, but for it to be in a way that does not threaten other people. Is his form of rebelling against society a mental illness? Is his attention seeking behaviour a mental illness? Is his anti authority attitude put into daily practice a mental illness? I don't believe he needed to die, but more importantly, I don't want cops going about their difficult jobs to die either. If, as I have said, it seems odd that the cops got themselves into, if it came to a choice between the cops and him.......then...well.

  17. Is his form of rebelling against society a mental illness?

    No. But it could be a manifestation of a mental illness. No 15 year old is beyond rehabilitation; that is a psychological fact.

  18. The shoe would be on a very different foot if this individual had actually wounded or killed a member of the police or member of the public. Bearing that in mind, I think the response was adequate. I just love how all the blame is aimed at police, not the person who was armed with two knives in a public place. How dare these people assume that individuals can behave like animals and expect the police to come out with the bubble wrap and white gloves!

  19. I will cut to the chase Reuben. Sometime you just have to trust an older dude's opinion and you are wrong. I would never have written anything if I thought he was mentally ill. In life, there are mentally frail people, and I am fully supportive of funds being directed towards helping them but there are also some bad people. Upbringing, genes, who knows. But he was bad and whatever his problem was, it was so ingrained and so deep, there was no chance of rehab. Even Somali refugees from a war torn country don't behave like that.

    I would not want him taken out, but circumstances prevailed. He was a bad boi and has suffered an unfortunate consequence.

    I shall save my bleeding heart for lost dogs, imprisoned bears milked for bile and poor pensioners

  20. Mixed message from you Rob. Kinda like everyone else. Bad situation. Bad outcome. A bit of hand wringing and forgotten.

  21. Yes Andrew, you sure are right, I do not put myself in the proximity of the patient so that I would be harmed. I always face the person, never my back to them, and I have easy exit. But... sometimes I kno the strength of the person could soon get them over those railes and onto me in seconds...always a finger on the code button for me.

  22. I guess experience and people reading skill helps a lot Cazzie.

  23. I won't press you on it, but the psychology says otherwise. Some times counter-intuitive thinking is necessary despite how much it aches old brains (I'm having a friendly bite back at you here, so don't get angry).

  24. Thanks for not pressing me on it. It was nearly a whole week ago.

  25. The answer is net guns. Seriously.

  26. Agree Ben. Why couldn't they bash his legs with a baton?